Cara Anthony
SIKESTON, Mo. — In the summer season of 2021, Sikeston residents organized the most important Juneteenth celebration within the metropolis’s historical past. Sikeston law enforcement officials got here too, each to supply safety for the occasion and to attempt to construct bridges with the group. But after a long time of distrust, some residents questioned their motives.
In the sequence finale of the podcast, a assured, outspoken Sikeston teenager shares her emotions in an uncommonly frank dialog with Chief James McMillen, head of Sikeston’s Department of Public Safety, which incorporates Sikeston police.
Host Cara Anthony asks what sort of systemic change is feasible to scale back the burden of racism on the well being of Black Americans. Health fairness professional Gail Christopher says it begins with institutional leaders who acknowledge the issue, measure it, and take concrete steps to alter issues.
“It is a process, and it’s not enough to march and get a victory,” Christopher stated. “We have to transform the systems of inequity in this country.”
Host
Cara Anthony
Midwest correspondent, KFF Health News
Cara is an Edward R. Murrow and National Association of Black Journalists award-winning reporter from East St. Louis, Illinois. Her work has appeared in The New York Times, Time journal, NPR, and different shops nationwide. Her reporting journey to the Missouri Bootheel in August 2020 launched the “Silence in Sikeston” challenge. She is a producer on the documentary and the podcast’s host.
In Conversation With …
Gail Christopher
Public well being chief and well being fairness professional
click on to open the transcript
Transcript: Is There a Cure for Racism?
Editor’s observe: If you’re able, we encourage you to take heed to the audio of “Silence in Sikeston,” which incorporates emotion and emphasis not discovered within the transcript. This transcript, generated utilizing transcription software program, has been edited for model and readability. Please use the transcript as a instrument however examine the corresponding audio earlier than quoting the podcast.
[Ambient sounds from Sikeston, Missouri’s 2021 Juneteenth celebration — a DJ making an announcement over funky music, people chatting — begin playing.]
Cara Anthony: It’s 2021. It’s scorching and humid. We’re at a park within the coronary heart of Sunset — Sikeston, Missouri’s traditionally Black neighborhood.
Emory: Today is Juneteenth, child.
Cara Anthony: The basketball courts are leaping. And old-school funk is blaring from the audio system. Kids are taking part in.
Cara Anthony: [Laughter] Are you having fun with the water?
Cara Anthony: People are lining up for barbecue.
I’ve been right here reporting on the toll racism and violence can tackle a group’s well being. But immediately, I’m hoping to seize somewhat little bit of Sikeston’s pleasure.
Taneshia Pulley: When I look out to the group of my individuals, I see power. I see energy. I simply see all magic.
Cara Anthony: I drift over to a tent the place individuals are getting their blood stress, weight, and top checked … well being screenings at no cost.
Cara Anthony: I’m a journalist.
Community Health Worker: Ooooh! Hi! Hi!
Cara Anthony: The girls working the sales space are excited I’m there to report on the occasion.
Cara Anthony: OK, and I’m a well being journalist.
Community well being employee: Baby, that’s what I advised them. Yeah, she wholesome. [Laughter]
[Dramatic instrumental music plays.]
Cara Anthony: This Juneteenth gathering is occurring somewhat over a yr after Sikeston law enforcement officials shot and killed 23-year-old Denzel Taylor.
We made a documentary about Denzel’s dying and the dying of one other younger Black man — additionally killed in Sikeston.
Denzel was shot by police. Nearly 80 years earlier, Cleo Wright was lynched by a white mob.
Both have been killed earlier than they received their day in courtroom.
In these years of reporting, what I’ve discovered is that many Black households fear that their youngsters don’t have an equal likelihood of rising up wholesome and secure in Sikeston.
[Dramatic instrumental ends.]
Rosemary Owens: Being Black within the Bootheel can get you killed at any age.
Cara Anthony: That’s Rosemary Owens. She raised her youngsters right here in Southeast Missouri.
Cara Anthony: About 10 Sikeston law enforcement officials confirmed as much as Juneteenth — for safety and to attach with the group. Some are in uniform; some are in plain garments.
Rosemary has her doubts about why they got here immediately.
Cara Anthony: You see the police chief speaking to individuals. What’s going by means of your thoughts as you see them milling about?
Rosemary Owens: I hope they’re actual and wanting to shut the hole between the African Americans and the white individuals.
Anybody can come out and shake palms. But on the finish of the day, did you imply what you stated? Because issues are nonetheless occurring right here in Sikeston, Missouri.
Cara Anthony: For Rosemary, this brings to thoughts an encounter with the police from years in the past.
[Slow, minor, instrumental music plays softly.]
When her son was possibly 16 years previous, she says, she and her sister gave their boys the keys to their new automobiles — advised them they may hand around in them.
Rosemary had gotten her new automobile for Mother’s Day.
Rosemary Owens: A brand-new pink Dodge Caravan. We, we knew the boys have been simply going from the van to the automobile. You know, simply displaying out — they have been boys. They weren’t driving.
Cara Anthony: Someone close by noticed the boys …
Rosemary Owens: … known as and advised the police that two Black males have been robbing automobiles.
When the boys noticed the police come up, there was three police automobiles. So they have been like, one thing’s occurring. So their intention, they have been like, they have been making an attempt to run to us. And my brother stated, cease. When they regarded again, when the police received out of the automobile, they already had their weapons drawn on my son and my nephew. Cara Anthony: That’s what Rosemary thinks about when she sees Sikeston police at Juneteenth.
[Slow, minor, instrumental music ends.]
[“Silence in Sikeston” theme song plays.] Cara Anthony: In this podcast sequence, we’ve talked about among the methods racism makes Black individuals sick. But Juneteenth has me interested by how we get free — how we STOP racism from making us sick.
The public well being specialists say it’s going to take systemwide, institutional change.
In this episode, we’re going to look at what that community-level change appears to be like like — or no less than what it appears to be like prefer to make a begin.
From WORLD Channel and KFF Health News, distributed by PRX, that is “Silence in Sikeston.”
Episode 4 is our ultimate episode: “Is There a Cure for Racism?”
[“Silence in Sikeston” theme song ends.]
James McMillen: How you doing?
Juneteenth celebration attendee: Good. Good.
James McMillen: Good to see you, man.
Juneteenth celebration attendee: What’s up? How are you?
Cara Anthony: When I spot Sikeston’s director of public security in his cowboy hat, sipping soda from a can, I head over to speak. James McMillen: Well, you already know, I simply, I, I’m glad to be … on the within of this.
Cara Anthony: James McMillen leads the police division. He says he made it some extent to come back to Juneteenth. And he inspired his officers to come back, too.
James McMillen: I bear in mind as being a younger officer coming to work right here, not understanding anyone, driving by a park and seeing a number of Black individuals on the market. And I bear in mind feeling, you already know, considerably intimidated by that. And I don’t actually know why.
I hadn’t at all times been, um, that energetic in the neighborhood. And, um, I, I’ve been the final a number of years and I’m simply wanting to show officers to do the identical factor.
Cara Anthony: The chief advised me displaying up was a part of his division’s efforts to restore relations with Sikeston’s Black residents.
James McMillen: What’s vital about that is, being out right here and truly understanding individuals, I believe it builds that belief that we have to have to forestall and resolve crimes.
Cara Anthony: A couple of minutes into our dialog, I discover a youngster and her good friend close by, listening.
Cara Anthony: Yeah, we’ve got two people who find themselves watching us fairly intently. Come over right here. Come over right here. Tell us your names.
Lauren: My title is Lauren.
Michaiahes: My title is Michaiahes.
Cara Anthony: Yeah. And what are you all … ?
James McMillen: I noticed you over there.
Cara Anthony: So, what do you concentrate on all of this?
Michaiahes: Personally, I don’t even know who it’s because I don’t mess with police as a result of, due to what’s occurred previously with the police. But, um …
Cara Anthony: As she begins to path off, I encourage her to maintain going.
Cara Anthony: He’s proper right here. He’s in control of all of these individuals.
Michaiahes: Well, in my view, y’all ought to begin caring concerning the group extra.
Cara Anthony: What are you listening to? She’s talking from the center right here, Chief. What are you listening to?
James McMillen: Well, you already know what? I agree with every little thing she stated there.
Cara Anthony: She’s assured now, wanting the chief within the eye.
Michaiahes: And let’s simply be trustworthy: Some of those law enforcement officials don’t even wish to be right here immediately. They’re simply right here to assume they’re doing one thing for the group.
James McMillen: Let’s be trustworthy. Some of those are assumptions that y’all are making about police that y’all don’t actually know.
[Subtle propulsive music begins playing.]
Michaiahes: If we seen you defending group, if we seen you doing what you speculated to do, then we wouldn’t have these assumptions about you.
James McMillen: I simply wish to say that individuals are people. We have supervisors that attempt to preserve them to carry an ordinary. And you shouldn’t decide the entire division, however, however simply don’t decide the entire division off of some. No greater than I ought to decide the entire group off of some.
Cara Anthony: But right here’s the factor … in our conversations through the years, Chief McMillen has been candid with me about how, as a rookie cop, he had judged Sikeston’s Black residents based mostly on interactions with only a few.
James McMillen: Some of, um, my first calls within the Black group have been coping with, clearly, criminals, you already know? So if first impressions imply something, that one set a foul one. I had, um, actually unfairly judging the entire group based mostly on the few interactions that I had, once more, with majority of criminals.
Cara Anthony: The chief says he’s moved previous that mind-set and he’s making an attempt to assist his officers transfer previous their assumptions.
And he advised me about different issues he needs to do …
Hire extra Black officers. Invest in racial-bias consciousness schooling for the division. And open up extra traces of communication with the group.
James McMillen: I do know that we’re not going to see progress or we’re not going to see success and not using a little little bit of ache and discomfort on our half.
Cara Anthony: I don’t assume I’ve ever heard the chief use the time period institutional change, however the guarantees and the plans he’s making sound like steps in that course.
Except … right here’s one thing else the chief says he needs …
[Subtle propulsive music ends with a flourish.]
James McMillen: As a police officer, I wish to hear extra individuals discuss, um, simply complying with the officer.
Cara Anthony: That phrase is chilling to me.
[Quiet, dark music starts playing.]
When I hear “just comply” … a litany of names cross my thoughts.
Philando Castile.
Sonya Massey.
Tyre Nichols.
Cara Anthony: After Denzel Taylor was killed, individuals felt unsafe. I talked to a number of residents on the report about them feeling like they didn’t know in the event that they might be subsequent.
One factor that you just advised me was, like, effectively, one factor that folks can do is adjust to the officers, you already know, in the event that they discover themselves having an interplay with regulation enforcement.
James McMillen: Well, I imply, I believe that’s, that’s a good suggestion to do.
And if the individual will not be complying, that officer has received to be considering, is that this individual making an attempt to harm me? So, asking individuals to adjust to the officer’s command — that’s an affordable assertion.
Cara Anthony: But, it’s effectively documented: Black Americans are extra probably than our white friends to be perceived as harmful by police.
That notion will increase the probabilities we’ll be the sufferer of lethal pressure. Whether we comply — or not.
[Quiet, dark music ends.]
That’s all to say … even with the promise of extra Black officers in Sikeston and all of the chief’s different plans, I’m undecided institutional change in policing is coming quickly to Sikeston.
[Sparse electronic music starts playing.]
Cara Anthony: I took that fear to Gail Christopher. She has spent her lengthy profession making an attempt to deal with the causes of institutional racism.
Cara Anthony: We’ve been calling most of our friends by their first title, however what’s your desire? I don’t wish to get in bother with my mother on this, you already know? [Cara laughs.]
Gail Christopher: If you don’t thoughts, Dr. Christopher is sweet.
Cara Anthony: OK. All proper. That sounds good. I’m glad I requested.
Cara Anthony: Dr. Christopher thinks loads concerning the connections between race and well being. And she’s government director of the National Collaborative for Health Equity. Her nonprofit designs methods for social change.
She says the way in which to consider beginning to repair structural racism … is to consider the longer term.
Gail Christopher: What would you like in your daughter? What do I would like for my youngsters? I would like them to not have interactions with the police, No. 1, proper?
Uh, so I would like them to have secure locations to be, to play, to be educated … equal entry to the chance to be wholesome.
Cara Anthony: But I ponder if that future is even attainable.
[Sparse electronic music ends.]
Cara Anthony: Is there a remedy for racism? And I do know it’s not that straightforward, however is there a remedy?
Gail Christopher: I like the query, proper? And my reply to you’ll be sure. It is a course of, and it’s not sufficient to march and get a victory. We have to remodel the methods of inequity on this nation.
Cara Anthony: And Dr. Christopher says it is attainable. Because racism is a perception system.
[Hopeful instrumental music plays.]
Gail Christopher: There is a technique that’s grounded in psychological analysis and social science for altering our beliefs and subsequently altering our behaviors which are pushed by these beliefs.
Cara Anthony: To get there, she says, establishments want a rigorous dedication to look intently at what they’re doing — and the outcomes they’re creating.
Gail Christopher: Data monitoring and monitoring and being accountable for what’s occurring.
We can’t resolve an issue if we don’t admit that it exists.
Cara Anthony: One of her favourite examples of what it appears to be like prefer to make a begin towards systemic change comes from the well being care world.
I do know we’ve been speaking about policing thus far, however — bear with me right here — we’re going to pivot to a different means institutional bias kills individuals.
A number of years in the past, a staff of researchers on the Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston reviewed admission data for sufferers with coronary heart failure. They discovered that Black and Latinx individuals have been much less probably than white sufferers to be admitted to specialised cardiology items.
Gail Christopher: Without calling individuals racist, they noticed absolutely the knowledge that confirmed that, wait a minute, we’re sending the white individuals to get the specialty care and we’re not sending the individuals of colour.
Cara Anthony: So, Brigham and Women’s launched a pilot program.
When a physician requests a mattress for a Black or Latinx affected person with coronary heart failure, the pc system notifies them that, traditionally, Black and Latinx sufferers haven’t had equal entry to specialty care.
The laptop system then recommends the affected person be admitted to the cardiology unit. It’s nonetheless as much as the physician to truly do this.
The arduous knowledge’s not revealed but, however we checked in with the hospital, they usually say this system appears to be making a distinction.
Gail Christopher: It begins with management. Someone in that system has the authority and makes the choice to carry themselves accountable for brand new outcomes.
[Hopeful instrumental music ends.]
Cara Anthony: OK, so it might be working at a hospital. Let’s shift again to policing now.
Gail Christopher: There must be an accountability board in that group, a residents’ accountability board, the place they’re setting measurable and achievable targets and they’re holding that police division accountable for attaining these targets.
Cara Anthony: But, like, do Black individuals must take part on this? Because we’re drained.
Gail Christopher: Listen, do I do know that we’re drained! Am I drained? After 50 years? Uh, I believe that there’s work that each one individuals must do. This enterprise of studying to see ourselves in each other, to be totally human — it’s all of our work.
[Warm, optimistic instrumental music plays.]
Now, does that preclude testing at instances and taking good care of your self? I can’t inform you how many individuals my age who’re not alive immediately, who have been my colleagues and mates within the motion. But they died prematurely due to this lack of permission to deal with ourselves.
Cara Anthony: Rest when you must, she says, however preserve going.
Gail Christopher: We have to try this as a result of it’s our damage. It is our ache. And I believe we’ve got the stamina and the need to see it change.
Cara Anthony: Yep. Heard. It’s all of our work.
Dr. Christopher has me interested by all of the Black individuals in Sikeston who aren’t sitting round ready for another person to alter the establishments which are hurting them.
People protested when Denzel Taylor was killed even with all of the stress to remain quiet about it.
Protesters: Justice for Denzel on 3. 1, 2, 3 … Justice for Denzel! Again! 1, 2, 3 … Justice for Denzel!
Cara Anthony: And I’m interested by the individuals who have been dwelling within the Sunset neighborhood of Sikeston in 1942 when Cleo Wright was lynched.
Harry Howard: They picked up rocks and bricks and crowbars and simply something to guard our group.
Cara Anthony: And Sunset didn’t burn.
[Warm, optimistic instrumental music begins fading out.]
[Piano starts warming up.]
Cara Anthony: After almost 80 years of largely staying quiet about Cleo’s lynching, Sikeston residents organized a service to mark what occurred to him — and their group.
Reverend: We are so honored and humbled to be the host church this night for the remembrance and reconciliation service of Mr. Cleo Wright.
[Piano plays along with Pershard singing.]
Pershard Owens: [Singing] It’s been a protracted, very long time coming, however I do know a change gonna come, oh sure it would. It’s been too arduous a-livin however I’m afraid to die and I don’t know what’s up subsequent, past the sky …
[Pershard singing and piano accompaniment fade out.]
Cara Anthony: I wish to introduce you to that man who was simply singing then. His title is Pershard Owens.
Remember Rosemary Owens? The lady who advised us about somebody calling the police on her son and nephew after they have been taking part in with their mother and father’ new automobiles? Pershard is Rosemary’s youthful son.
Pershard Owens: Yeah, I positively keep in mind that.
Cara Anthony: Even in any case this time, different individuals didn’t wish to speak to us about it. We couldn’t discover information protection of the incident. But Pershard remembers. He was in his weekly karate apply when it occurred. He was 10 or 11 years previous.
Pershard Owens: My brother and cousin have been, like, they have been teenagers. So what do you assume individuals are going to really feel concerning the police after they do this, no questions requested, simply weapons drawn?
Cara Anthony: Pershard’s dad works as a police officer on a special police pressure within the Bootheel. Pershard is aware of police. But that didn’t make it any much less scary for him.
Pershard Owens: You know, my mother and father nonetheless needed to sit us down and speak and be like, “Hey, this is, that’s not OK, but you can’t, you can’t be a victim. You can’t be upset.” That’s how I used to be taught. So we acknowledge the previous. But we don’t, we don’t keep down.
Cara Anthony: So years later, when Chief James McMillen began a program as a extra formal means for individuals in Sikeston and the police to construct higher relationships, Pershard signed up. They began assembly in 2020.
The group is known as Police and Community Together, or PACT for brief.
[Sparse, tentative music begins playing.]
Pershard Owens: It was somewhat tense that first couple of conferences as a result of no one knew what it was going to be.
Cara Anthony: This was solely 5 months after Sikeston police killed Denzel Taylor.
PACT will not be a residents’ accountability board. The police don’t must reply to it.
The committee met each month. For some time. But they haven’t met in over a yr now.
Pershard Owens: We would have steps ahead after which we’d have three steps again.
Cara Anthony: People have completely different accounts for why that’s. Busy schedules. Mutual suspicion. Other issues law enforcement officials have performed that shook the belief of Black residents in Sikeston.
Pershard Owens: And individuals have been like, bro, like, how are you going to work with these individuals?
The group is like, I can’t totally get behind it as a result of I do know what you probably did to my little cousin and them. Like, I do know what the division did again in, you already know, 15 years in the past, and it’s arduous to get previous that.
So, I imply, I’m getting either side, like, continually, and pay attention, that’s, that’s robust.
[Sparse, tentative music ends.]
Cara Anthony: But Pershard says one thing vital modified as a result of he began working with PACT.
Pershard Owens: Chief didn’t like me at first [Pershard laughs]. He didn’t.
Chief didn’t … me and Chief didn’t see eye to eye. Because he had heard issues about me and he — individuals had advised him that I used to be, I used to be anti-police and hated law enforcement officials, and he got here in with a protection up.
So, it took a minute for me and him to, like, begin seeing one another another way. But all of it occurred once we sat down and had a dialog.
[Slow instrumental music begins playing.]
Cara Anthony: Just have a dialog. It sounds so easy; you’re in all probability rolling your eyes proper now listening to it.
But Pershard says … it might be significant.
Pershard Owens: I actually need and imagine that we will be collectively and we are able to work collectively and we are able to have a constructive relationship the place you see police and y’all dap one another up and y’all legit imply it. I believe that may occur, however lots of people have to alter their mindsets.
Cara Anthony: That’s a problem Pershard is providing to police AND group members: Have a dialog with somebody completely different from you. See if that modifications the way in which you concentrate on the individual you’re speaking to. See if it modifications your beliefs.
The extra individuals do this, the extra methods can change.
Pershard Owens: We received to look within the mirror and say, “Am I doing what I can to try and change the dynamic of Sikeston, even if it does hurt?”
Cara Anthony: Pershard says he’s going to maintain placing himself on the market. He ran for City Council in 2021. And despite the fact that he misplaced, he says he doesn’t remorse it.
Pershard Owens: When you’re coping with a spot like Sikeston, it’s not going to alter in a single day.
Cara Anthony: And he’s glad he labored with PACT. Even if the group dialogue has fizzled for now, he’s happy with the brand new relationship he constructed with Chief McMillen. And all of this has broadened his view of what sort of change is feasible.
[Slow instrumental music ends.]
Pershard Owens: If you need one thing that has by no means been performed, it’s important to go locations that you just’ve by no means been.
[“Silence in Sikeston” theme music plays.]
Cara Anthony: Places that you just’ve by no means been … tales that you just’ve by no means advised out loud … possibly all of that helps construct a Sikeston the place Black residents can really feel safer. Where Black individuals can dwell more healthy lives.
A world you won’t have the ability to think about but, however one that might exist for the subsequent era.
[“Silence in Sikeston” theme music ends.]
[Upbeat instrumental music plays.]
Cara Anthony: Thanks for listening to “Silence in Sikeston.”
Next, go watch the documentary — it’s a joint manufacturing from Retro Report and KFF Health News, introduced in partnership with WORLD.
Subscribe to WORLD Channel on YouTube. That’s the place yow will discover the movie “Silence in Sikeston,” a Local, USA particular.
If you made it this far, thanks. Let me understand how you’re feeling.
I’d love to listen to extra concerning the conversations this podcast has sparked in your life. Leave us a voicemail at (202) 654-1366.
And due to everybody in Sikeston for sharing your tales with us.
This podcast is a co-production of WORLD Channel and KFF Health News and distributed by PRX.
It was produced with help from PRX and made attainable partially by a grant from the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation.
This audio sequence was reported and hosted by me, Cara Anthony.
Audio manufacturing by me, Zach Dyer. And me, Taylor Cook.
Editing by me, Simone Popperl.
And me, managing editor Taunya English.
Sound design, mixing, and unique music by me, Lonnie Ro.
Podcast artwork design by Colin Mahoney and Tania Castro-Daunais.
Tarena Lofton and Hannah Norman are engagement and social media producers for the present.
Oona Zenda and Lydia Zuraw are the touchdown web page designers.
Lynne Shallcross is the picture editor, with images from Michael B. Thomas.
Thank you to vocal coach Viki Merrick.
And thanks to my mother and father for all their help over the 4 years of this challenge.
Music on this episode is from Epidemic Sound and Blue Dot Sessions.
Some of the audio you heard throughout the podcast can also be within the movie.
For that, particular due to Adam Zletz, Matt Gettemeier, Roger Herr, and Philip Geyelin.
Kyra Darnton is government producer at Retro Report.
I used to be a producer on the movie.
Jill Rosenbaum directed the documentary.
Kytja Weir is nationwide editor at KFF Health News.
WORLD Channel’s editor-in-chief and government producer is Chris Hastings.
Help us get the phrase out about “Silence in Sikeston.” Write a overview or give us a fast score wherever you take heed to this podcast.
Thank you! It makes a distinction.
Oh yeah! And inform your pals in actual life too!
[Upbeat instrumental music ends.]
Credits
Taunya English
Managing editor
Taunya is deputy managing editor for broadcast at KFF Health News, the place she leads enterprise audio tasks.
Simone Popperl
Line editor
Simone is broadcast editor at KFF Health News, the place she shapes tales that air on Marketplace, NPR, and CBS News Radio, and she or he co-manages a nationwide reporting collaborative.
Zach Dyer
Senior producer
Zach is senior producer for audio with KFF Health News, the place he supervises all ranges of podcast manufacturing.
Taylor Cook
Associate producer
Taylor is an unbiased producer who does analysis, books friends, contributes writing, and fact-checks episodes for a number of KFF Health News podcasts.
Lonnie Ro
Sound designer
Lonnie Ro is an audio engineer and a composer who brings audio tales to life by means of unique music and professional sound design for platforms like Spotify, Audible, and KFF Health News.
Additional Newsroom Support
Lynne Shallcross, picture editorOona Zenda, illustrator and internet producerLydia Zuraw, internet producerTarena Lofton, viewers engagement producer Hannah Norman, video producer and visible reporter Chaseedaw Giles, viewers engagement editor and digital strategistKytja Weir, nationwide editor Mary Agnes Carey, managing editor Alex Wayne, government editorDavid Rousseau, writer Terry Byrne, copy chief Gabe Brison-Trezise, deputy copy chief Tammie Smith, communications officer
The “Silence in Sikeston” podcast is a manufacturing of KFF Health News and WORLD. Distributed by PRX. Subscribe and pay attention on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, iHeartwork, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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