Dan Weissmann
In July 2022, “An Arm and a Leg” listener Meagan skilled a bout of vertigo that landed her within the emergency room. For greater than two years after, Meagan endured what felt like a endless collection of communications with the hospital over a medical invoice she knew she didn’t owe.
Meagan spoke with host Dan Weissmann about what stored her motivated to maintain combating and the authorized tactic that lastly led to a breakthrough.
Dan Weissmann
Host and producer of “An Arm and a Leg.” Previously, Dan was a employees reporter for Marketplace and Chicago’s WBEZ. His work additionally seems on All Things Considered, Marketplace, the BBC, 99 Percent Invisible, and Reveal, from the Center for Investigative Reporting.
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Transcript: Winning a Two-Year Fight Over a Bogus Bill
Note: “An Arm and a Leg” makes use of speech-recognition software program to generate transcripts, which can include errors. Please use the transcript as a software however verify the corresponding audio earlier than quoting the podcast.
Dan: Hey there–
Just a few months in the past, we acquired a be aware from a listener named Meagan in California. It began like this:
“Last month, I efficiently had a supplier pull again a invoice from collections and cease billing me for an ER go to from July 2022.
Meagan was writing to us in fall of 2024– that invoice had not gotten resolved till greater than two years after the ER go to.
Meagan, um, needed to thank us! Her be aware mentioned she’d picked up some tactical recommendation, however she mentioned the present had helped her hold going. Here’s how she put it once we talked together with her.
Meagan: I may take heed to the podcast and sort of hear some neighborhood and say, I’m not alone. This is a attainable factor, proper?
Dan: Of course Meagan’s story is epic. Because components of it are private, she’s requested us to not use her full identify.
This story has some comically wild twists. And some essential tactical classes.
And it’s Meagan’s reflections on the entire journey that I particularly need to share with you.
This is An Arm and a Leg, a present about why well being care prices so freaking a lot, and what we will perhaps do about it. I’m Dan Weissmann. I’m a reporter, and I like a problem. So the job we’ve chosen on this present is to take probably the most enraging, terrifying, miserable components of American life, and produce you one thing entertaining, empowering, and helpful.
July 28, 2022 was a Thursday. Meagan woke as much as a model new expertise: Vertigo. Nausea. Dizzyness, the works.
Meagan: I simply couldn’t see straight, couldn’t get up… principally made it to the lavatory and laid on the lavatory flooring for like 4 hours.
Dan: She referred to as in sick to work, waited to really feel higher. But she didn’t. And she acquired frightened.
Meagan: I believe what was scariest about it’s that I didn’t know why I had it. What if I’ve a mind tumor and that’s why I can’t see straight, or like, what if one thing’s happening with my eyes?
Dan: Meagan lives alone.
Meagan: So just like the variety of individuals that you simply need to name in that scenario, which might be like, ‘hi, can you like, help me?’
Dan: That quantity was zero.
She referred to as an ambulance, went to the closest hospital.
The ER docs dominated out the scariest prospects, gave her meds for dizziness and nausea, despatched her house. And she recovered.
That was the straightforward half. On to the payments.
The combat over the first invoice was actually sort of a warm-up. This one arrived a pair months after her ER go to, from the ambulance service. Two thousand, seven hundred twenty-two {dollars} and forty-two cents.
Which Meagan didn’t anticipate to pay. She’d been to the ER earlier within the yr, paid a complete lot of cash — which she knew meant she’d hit her insurance coverage plan’s out-of-pocket most.
Every insurance coverage plan has this: It’s the quantity that, after you hit it, insurance coverage picks up every thing else.
So she referred to as her insurance coverage firm.
Meagan: I used to be like,‘Hey, I’ve hit my out of pocket max. This doesn’t make any sense. I’m getting billed.’ And they sort of mentioned,‘Okay, yeah, we’re on it. We’ll deal with it. We’ll reprocess every thing.’
Dan: And she did get paperwork from her insurance coverage that mentioned she owed the ambulance firm nothing.
But she stored getting payments. And after a couple of months, a set company referred to as about them. Meagan says she instructed them: My insurance coverage firm says I don’t owe this.
And she says their response was, Well, do you could have documentation?
Meagan: And they mentioned it on this tone that was like, you don’t know what you’re speaking about and you may’t be proper. Here’s a really particular doc that you simply’re gonna must show this. And I used to be like, Yeah, I’ve that.
Dan: You could have caught a second particular person laughing there. That’s our producer Claire Davenport, who talked with Meagan and did a lot of the reporting for this story. Meagan says she emailed the collections of us straight away.
Meagan: I used to be like,‘per our discussion, here is all the documents that say, I do not owe you any money.’ And then they mentioned,‘okay,’ and I by no means heard from them once more.
Dan: So, Meagan was like, OK cool! That completely labored.
But like I discussed: That ambulance invoice was simply the warmup.
By the time it acquired resolved, it was March 2023, nearly eight months after her vertigo assault. Meagan says the hospital nonetheless hadn’t despatched her a invoice for the precise ER go to.
But she had gotten paperwork from her insurance coverage firm, United Healthcare. They present that United had paid the hospital, run by Kaiser Permanente, a couple of thousand {dollars}.
By the way in which: We know all this as a result of Meagan shared dozens of pages of paperwork with us
United appeared to assume Meagan would owe Kaiser about 5 hundred seventy {dollars}..
Meagan says she lastly heard from Kaiser in July 2023. Just wanting a yr since her ER go to. They despatched a invoice for 3 thousand, 300 eight-one {dollars} and 62 cents. This is sort of six occasions United’s estimate.
Meagan: I’m like, it is a huge amount of cash. I do know I don’t owe it. What is happening?
Dan: Getting that resolved would take greater than 15 months. And loads of cellphone calls. From the beginning, she says she stored in thoughts suggestions from this present.
Meagan: One of the issues that y’all speak about on the podcast is simply having that, like, fairly cordial tone, like not getting offended on the individuals. So each time I’m calling, like I’m pissed off, I’m drained, however I’m having a pleasing dialog with the particular person on the opposite finish of the road who shouldn’t be personally accountable for what’s happening.
Dan: Here’s how she says these conversations tended to go.
Meagan: I’d name United and I’d say,‘Hey, United. This provider is billing me. Can you guys reprocess this claim?’ And they might say,‘yep, we’re on it. We see your file.’
Dan: And by the point Meagan says she began making these calls United’s file confirmed Meagan solely owed Kaiser about sixty-four bucks. Meagan says United would promise to inform Kaiser the deal.
Meagan: I’d additionally instantly name Kaiser and say,‘Hey, Kaiser. I just spoke to United. I’m protesting this declare. Please don’t hold billing me.’
Dan: And so on.
Meagan: Every single individual that I talked to was attempting to be useful. Everyone was like, Oh yeah, like, I’ve seemed by means of your notes, this appears to be like like a mistake.
Dan: She says, they’d inform her, simply give us 10 to 14 enterprise days to course of this.
Meagan: And then I’d simply go on with my life.
Dan: But month after month, she says: these fixes simply didn’t stick.
Meagan: And so each time I acquired a invoice, it was like, this particular person failed me. Like they weren’t in a position to do that and get it fastened for me. And it was simply
super-disappointing. And I used to be like, I’m again in precisely the identical place. Like, I didn’t really feel like I had another instruments.
Dan: But she discovered methods to maintain going, make the following name. Like remembering how she’d fought off the ambulance invoice.
Meagan: I used to be like, okay, I’m so assured that I don’t owe this as a result of I’ve been profitable earlier than And so that may get me, like, actually amped up and offended about it.
Dan: That was one sort of vitality. Meagan says she additionally acquired loads of help and inspiration from her finest buddy.
Meagan: Her mother had lately needed to go in for knee surgical procedure. Dan: And a number of the payments, they hadn’t seemed proper to Meagan’s buddy.
Meagan: And her mother doesn’t communicate loads of English. She’s not very excessive earnings. So she’s acquired so much fewer privileges than my buddy or myself. And so my buddy is the one who took on the duty of her payments. And so my buddy was actually useful in that as a result of we’d speak about, like, it’s the precept of it for the individuals who can’t do that.
Dan: Meagan says that precept gave her a distinct sort of vitality: It let her think about that there may be an even bigger level to her combat.
Meagan: Maybe if I can combat this, they’ll discover some difficulty that this gained’t occur once more and it gained’t occur to any person else.
Dan: And Meagan knew: This was occurring to loads of different individuals.
Meagan: People have been combating for tougher stuff. People have had tougher or longer continual circumstances, I used to be wholesome, proper? It’s not like I used to be combating most cancers payments or completely different suppliers or simply the complexity that billing can get into. And I really feel like your present was a part of that inspiration for me the place it’s like individuals on the market are going by means of more durable issues than only a single hospital go to the place one invoice is incorrect. And so, yeah, I can hold doing this. This is simple.
Dan: So month after month, Meagan says she simply stored making that subsequent name. And after some time, she tried some new techniques.
An Arm and a Leg Season 13, Episode 5 3/20/25 p.6
After she acquired a invoice dated December 24 — Christmas eve — she tried one thing new:
She despatched Kaiser a fax of the assertion from her insurance coverage saying she owes 64 {dollars}, not three thousand.
And she says she referred to as Kaiser to observe up. Got a man on the cellphone.
Meagan: I used to be like, did you get and he was like, I can’t affirm that we’ve obtained it. It takes X quantity of days.
Dan: By the time these days had handed, it was January 2025 — a yr and a half after Meagan’s ER go to. She’d been combating the invoice for six months.
And by the top of January, yet one more invoice arrived.
So… Meagan thinks it’s round this time when she tried to get Kaiser and United on the cellphone collectively herself. United had given her a quantity to go alongside to Kaiser’s billing workplace.
Instead, this time Meagan acquired a Kaiser billing rep to remain on the road whereas Meagan began a three-way name.
But she says United didn’t need that three approach name.
Meagan: They had been like,‘Oh, the customer is on the line. You can’t use this cellphone quantity. Like that is just for companies.’
Dan: No sufferers allowed. Meagan says United transferred the decision to their customer-service line for sufferers.
There was a menu to navigate.. Meagan was used to it. The Kaiser rep, not a lot.
Meagan: So we did the entire like click on, you recognize, click on quantity six click on primary enter your you recognize Whatever and we’d perhaps been on maintain for like three or 4 minutes And she’s like,‘this is ridiculous. What are they doing? Why have we been here for so long?’ I’m like,‘ma’am, it’s been three minutes. Like, let me inform you what my life has been like currently. I used to be like, I do know this music. I can inform you every thing that’s coming.’
Dan: The downside didn’t get solved. Bills stored arriving. Meagan says she stored making calls.
And then in June, a United Healthcare rep gave Meagan a suggestion that turned issues round.
That’s subsequent.
This episode of An Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with KFF Health News. That’s a nonprofit newsroom masking well being points in America. Their reporters win every kind of awards yearly. We are honored to work with them.
Meagan’s massive name with a United Healthcare rep didn’t begin with a really hopeful-sounding prognosis. She says the rep instructed her:
Meagan: ‘I don’t assume there’s something extra that we will do, like we’ve. We’ve offered all this info to Kaiser. We don’t know why they’re getting it. We’ve adopted all of their directions.’
Dan: But she says the rep did have one thing to supply. Legal recourse — proper within the paperwork United had despatched Meagan:
Meagan: The United consultant was like,‘Yeah, look at your explanation of benefits.’ There was language that she identified to me that mentioned,‘you do not owe this bill and you have rights.’
Dan: And Meagan says the United rep instructed her a couple of free authorized hotline. Meagan says she ended up speaking with a lawyer who gave her a template for a Cease and Desist letter: A letter that claims, in case you don’t minimize this out, I’d sue you.
The template cited state and federal legal guidelines. Meagan stuffed in particulars about how Kaiser could also be violating them — by billing her for cash she didn’t owe. The letter demanded that they cease contacting her..
And it mentioned how in the event that they violated her rights– for example, sending her one other invoice or calling her — the legislation gave her the suitable to sue for damages. Up to a thousand {dollars} for every occasion.
Meagan despatched her letter licensed mail. She shared the receipt with us.
And, as she instructed Claire, this was really the emotional excessive level of the entire epic.
Meagan: I used to be strolling round and I used to be like telling a pair of us, I’m like,‘I just sent a cease and desist letter to Kaiser’ and they’d be like, ‘Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry,’ however for me, I used to be so excited. It’s the primary level at which I felt that I had the ability. Like, all of this case the entire time alongside the way in which was like, I’m reliant on Kaiser. I’m reliant on United for these individuals to do issues. And in order that was flipping the script for me the place I’m like, no, I’m a badass.
Dan: And then two months later, she acquired one other invoice. This one mentioned FINAL NOTICE. It mentioned if she doesn’t pay up, Kaiser will ship her to collections.
So Meagan says she made the following cellphone name– and nearly by chance — she discovered herself saying what turned out to be the magic phrases.
Meagan: I snicker at how I dealt with this as a result of I referred to as Kaiser, I mentioned – it was a very, once more, very cordial dialog. I used to be like, Hey, um, I despatched you guys a stop and desist. Uh, I obtained one other invoice. Um, what’s happening? And they’re like,‘Not sure. Don’t have it in your file that we ever obtained something. Don’t have any document of that right here with this declare.’ I requested it as a query. This is what’s so humorous to me. I used to be like,‘So like, do I have any other options than to sue y’all?’
Claire: That’s superior. That’s the kindest approach I’ve ever heard of somebody threatening to sue.
Meagan: It’s so humorous on reflection, trigger within the second, it didn’t really feel like a risk. It was identical to. This is the following step, proper? Like, I’ve achieved all of the issues that I’m speculated to do and it’s not working. And I believe now we’ve got to go to courtroom. And that’s the place Kaiser got here again and was like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, we don’t, we don’t need to go to courtroom. They instantly had been like,‘I’m going to go forward and switch you to somebody.’
Dan: Meagan says the girl she talked to — “Angie” in her notes — appeared to take her critically.
Meagan: She was like, I’ll pull your letter out of collections. I’ll name you in three days. And it was simply after that, every thing was growth, growth, growth, growth, growth
Dan: It took a couple of weeks. Meagan says Angie stored giving her standing stories.
Meagan: till lastly someday I acquired the decision and she or he was like,‘It’s achieved. It’s settled. You owe us 64 {dollars},’ which is like, an enormous win, but in addition I used to be like, may I additionally not pay that 64 {dollars} at this level?
Dan: Not fairly. Meagan says Angie transferred her to somebody who would take that sixty-four greenback cost.
Meagan: And she goes,‘Is this hospital visit from 2022?’ She was shocked. She was like,‘this might be the oldest bill that I’ve ever processed.’ Like, I used to be like,‘yeah.’
Dan: So, it’s achieved.
We requested each United and Kaiser about Meagan’s story. They responded by electronic mail. United mentioned they had been glad their employees had been in the end capable of assist.
Kaiser mentioned Meagan’s “experience was unusual, and should not have happened. It was understandably frustrating for her, and we offer our apology.”
Kaiser additionally blamed United for every thing. They mentioned ALL the payments they despatched Meagan “were based on incorrect information from her insurer, which repeatedly provided us with wrong amounts for the patient’s responsibility, all while providing different information to the patient.”
Which conflicts with Meagan’s recollections, and the paperwork she shared with us.
For occasion, there’s paperwork Meagan acquired from United saying, principally, “Hey, just FYI — here’s a copy of a letter we just sent Kaiser.” That letter reveals Meagan’s duty as being — precisely the quantity Kaiser in the end accepted. OK.
Meanwhile, Meagan is certainly nonetheless working by means of her emotions about the entire thing.
One of them is definitely disappointment. Meagan says that one of many issues that stored her going was the hope that she may assist Kaiser establish a systemic downside, and repair it.
By the top, it wasn’t actually in regards to the cash.
After the primary six months, Kaiser really diminished the quantity they had been billing her for — Meagan says she nonetheless doesn’t know why — from three thousand and a few {dollars}, to 5 hundred and a few, which she says she may have paid, no downside.
Meagan: 500 for me was simple. But I do know it’s not for another person and that’s the place I’d all the time like pull again that power and be like,‘this is all about an opportunity to get something fixed.’ I need this to not occur to different individuals. I imply, it’s, it’s nearly a bit of little bit of a pipe dream to hope that that’s going to occur, however I do know for a reality it by no means occurred as a result of one particular person dealt with my case, after which that was it.
Dan: So disappointment is one feeling. Another one is worry.
Meagan says she could also be extra scared now than when she was combating the invoice. She compares it to the day she referred to as the ambulance, her vertigo assault.
Meagan: I nearly didn’t have the psychological capability on that day to be scared. Everything that I did that day was about placing one foot in entrance of the opposite. I used to be like, okay, like, this isn’t good. I’ve to get to the hospital. If I’ve to get to the hospital, like, I must name an ambulance. If I must name an ambulance, I want to seek out out the place my cellphone is. Okay, I’ve gotten to my cellphone. But if I name an ambulance, my entrance door is locked. And I actually – I don’t need them to interrupt my door down. I, like, crawled to my entrance door to unlock it and I simply laid it in my entrance door till the EMTs had been there, proper? That development that I simply instructed you in all probability took about six hours, proper? Like, it was simply horrible however I didn’t have time to be scared.
Dan: Meagan says whereas she was really combating the invoice, she was simply taking the following step, every time.
Meagan: The scary half for me is definitely right this moment. Like, I don’t really – I don’t consider that it’s over. I’m nonetheless scared that I’m going to get one other invoice within the mail, that they’re going to make another mistake that claims, Oh no, she nonetheless owes this cash. And I don’t know when that ends.
Dan: Meagan says she asks herself if she would do all of it once more. And given the frustration, all of the work, and even the worry she nonetheless carries– she’s unsure.
Meagan: it’s arduous on reflection to know if any of it was value it ‘cause I could have just paid 500 and never thought about it again. And that’s actually, actually arduous to wrestle with.
Dan: But she’s unsure she WOULDN’T do it once more. She’s undoubtedly acquired issues she’s discovered to understand. Like consumer-protection legal guidelines.
Meagan didn’t study a few of her rights till a United Healthcare employee pointed them out. But they had been printed on the paperwork she’d been getting each month.
Meagan: When push got here to shove, it was written proper there, and you would level to it. And somebody someplace in California fought for that and made {that a} legislation. And I don’t know who they’re, however like each little ingredient of that legislation coming by means of to help me, I’m very grateful for as a result of it helped me a lot.
Dan: And as Meagan instructed my colleague Claire, when buddies point out medical payments they’re combating, she likes to encourage them.
Meagan: I like to inform my buddies the story of like, oh, I fought a medical invoice and I And I sort of simply go away it at that, proper? I need to give them the very fact like there’s a knowledge level that claims generally you may combat medical payments efficiently. And if it is advisable to speak about something like I’m right here for you,
Claire: We ought to create like a bit of badge saying, I fought a medical invoice and I gained or one thing like that. Like a bit of, like, I’m considering of like a Girl Scout badge, like one thing you would put in your backpack.
Meagan: Exactly.
Claire: Like iron-on
Meagan: Like, ask me about combating medical payments.
Claire: I like that concept. That’s one thing we should always completely do. I’m going to inform Dan about that.
Dan: I adore it too! This is what I particularly love about Meagan’s story: Meagan says our present inspired her to take motion and to maintain going. And now she needs to offer encouragement to different individuals.
And: A buddy of mine identified one time what’s so cool in regards to the phrase encouragement.
Break it down, en-courage — it’s like, filling somebody up with COURAGE. It makes me so comfortable to assume that this present inspired Meagan. It makes me inspired. That is what I need to hold going, hold passing alongside.
Of course, I additionally need to share a number of the instruments that Meagan found alongside the way in which.
For starters, there’s the pattern cease-and-desist letter that lawyer shared together with her. Some of the legal guidelines it cites are California-specific. But California’s a giant state, perhaps you reside there!
Wherever you reside, you’ll have a few of your individual work to do, ensuring the circumstances there apply to you. I’m not a lawyer, and we don’t give authorized recommendation right here. But it is a darned attention-grabbing place to begin!
I additionally need to shout out a hack that Meagan developed: Using the notes app on her cellphone to make a cheat-sheet that she’d all the time have together with her.
Meagan: I did most of those cellphone calls from work. And so what I noticed is, oh, the payments at house. And I’ve an account quantity and it’s written on the invoice. And I don’t know how one can discover that whereas I’m at my workplace or identical to strolling round, taking a cellphone name.
Dan: So she made a spot for them, on her cellphone. That’s a tip I undoubtedly intend to repeat. We’ll share extra take-aways in our first assist equipment e-newsletter — in case you’re not signed up, the place to go is arm and a leg present dot com, slash first assist equipment.
And we’ll have a brand new episode for you in a couple of weeks. Till then, handle your self.
This episode of An Arm and a Leg was produced by Claire Davenport, with assist from me, Dan Weissmann, and Emily Pisacreta
And edited by Ellen Weiss.
Adam Raymonda is our audio wizard.
Our music is by Dave Weiner and Blue Dot Sessions.
Bea Bosco is our consulting director of operations.
Lynne Johnson is our operations supervisor.
An Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with KFF Health News. That’s a nationwide newsroom producing in-depth journalism about well being points in America and a core program at KFF: an unbiased supply of well being coverage analysis, polling, and journalism.
Zach Dyer is senior audio producer at KFF Health News. He’s editorial liaison to this present.
An Arm and a Leg is Distributed by KUOW– Seattle’s NPR station. And due to the Institute for Nonprofit News for serving as our fiscal sponsor. They enable us to just accept tax-exempt donations. You can study extra about INN at INN.org.
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“An Arm and a Leg” is a co-production of KFF Health News and Public Road Productions.
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